Welcoem to posts!!
in the future - u will be able to do some more stuff here,,,!! like pat catgirl- i mean um yeah... for now u can only see others's posts :c
clear definitions and precise wording are important in discussing these aspects of tree care. So please don't think I'm acting nitpicky on you. I actually removed a dead stub of a silver maple limb near the main stem, without damaging any live tissue on the newly formed callus growth. This did not create a cavity. However a cavity may develop over time.
It is important to distinguish the type of cavity that may form after such pruning from the type of cavity that forms after a pruning cut that violates the branch protection zone (BPZ) When you drive by a huge cavity in the base of an old tree, where a pruning cut was made a decade or more ago, the type of cavity that developed after violating the BPZ, is the type that causes structural failure in trees, something over 50-80% decay. Whereas the type of cavity that results from a two-stage pruning cut, more resembles the way trees shed dead limbs naturally and is far less likely to cause the type of decay that leads to structural failure.
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Sharing this comment which is a reply to Lars' comment about plant biologists confirming the sugar stick theory.
From the below video.
Daniel Murphy
1 second ago
@Lars ForslinForslin yes, we know that the sugar stick theory is correct. What is not correct is the assumptions that are made from the theory. Pathogens gain strength by feeding on the deadwood/stub. That's the theory. The mistaken assumption is that the type of decay that is caused by leaving a stub is worse than the type of decay that comes from teaching arborists target pruning (NOT to leave a stub). Trees evolved to live after deadwood and stubs occur naturally. They did not evolve to survive improper chainsaw cuts. IN THE REAL WORLD teaching target pruning leads to violations of the branch protection zone. The bigger the cut, the bigger the damage when the BPZ gets violated. The Europeans have shown that any cut over 4" is not going to compartmentalize well and can lead to terminal structural decay.
Also, look at the way the tree grows around a dead stub. That fat swollen collar is better engineered for structural stability than woundwood that callouses over a chainsaw cut.
So there are many perspectives that support the two-stage removal of large limbs., and none better than this: YOU CAN TELL ARBORISTS TO MAKE PROPER TARGET CUTS EVERY DAY AND ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE REAL WORLD. This is where common sense trumps science. Treework is often performed by underskilled, improperly trained, semi-sober individuals who really couldn't care less about the long term health of the tree. They are just trying to get paid. So they are not going to make perfect target cuts consistently. Then you have a minority of arborists that really do care and are well trained and trying to make perfect cuts. Even those few elite arborists are not going to make perfect target cuts every time. Tree work doesn't occur in the real world the way it does in a textbook. The target is often hard to see, and even if it is seen, there are bound to be cuts made that accidentally violate the collar. So teaching target pruning will never, in reality, keep arborists from violating the BPZ, whereas teaching two-stage limb removal will. ITS JUST COMMON SENSE!!!
https://youtu.be/d0qRKAWPx1Q
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If you are interested in tree pruning, both the science and practice, please check out this video and especially the conversation copied below in the comments. This gets back to Shigo and some bad logic which has never been questioned in the assumptions that scientists make when studying the trees' response to pruning.
https://youtu.be/6AhMSaIG27s
From Mathew Polo:
THAT'S A VERY INTRIGUING THOUGHT PROCESS..I RECENTLY COMPLETED ARBORIST TRAINING SO WAS EXPOSED TO MULTIPLE INSTRUCTORS AND NO ONE MENTIONED LEAVING STUBS THEN COMING BACK...ASIDE FROM THE CLASSES I'VE BEEN IN THE TREE CARE INDUSTRY FOR MANY YEARS AND NEVER CAME ACROSS SOMEONE WHO INTRODUCED THAT STRATEGY..THIS WILL PROVIDE A GREAT CONVERSATION WITH THE NEXT ARBORIST I MEET..ENJOY YOUR VIDS..THEY ARE DIFFERENT.BE SAFE.
Daniel Murphy
Daniel Murphy
39 minutes ago (edited)
Most "in the box thinkers" will reply that leaving a stub allows the decaying organisms a strong foothold and they will gain energy from the stub which helps them invade the trunk. I've heard that called the sugar stick theory. Unfortunately, NO SCIENCE has ever been done showing how that may or may not lead to failure. The scientists only measure discoloration over a short period of time and extrapolate. The failed logic is that discoloration leads to failure. In some cases it does and some it doesn't. no one has taken the 10-50 years to find out in a true scientific experiment. So we have to use logic, which is in surprisingly short supply amongst the scientists that study tree pruning.
Matthew Polo
Matthew Polo
10 minutes ago
TRUE....UNTIL THIS IDEA HAS SOME GRIP I GUESS TREES WILL HAVE TO HOPE STAFF IS TRAINED WHERE TO CUT AND WHERE NOT TO..CONSIDERING THE FOUR DIRECTIONS A TREE COMPARTMENTALIZES, I WONDER IF THAT SEAL WOULD STILL OCCUR AT THE BRANCH/TRUNK COLLAR OR RATHER TOWARDS END OF STUB..WE'LL HAVE TO PUT OUR DR. SHIGO HAT ON TO ESTABLISH A "SCIENTIFIC" EXPRESSION.
Daniel Murphy
Daniel Murphy
1 second ago
@Matthew Polo Shigo (GOD BLESS HIM FOR EVERYTHING HE DID TO TURN THIS INDUSTRY AROUND) is actually part of the problem here. He started his career in forestry, basically trying to reduce discoloration and it's negative effects on lumber value. Just look at his early papers, they were mainly about discoloration. He personally nor did the industry ever get out of the mistaken thinking that discoloration leads to tree failure. ALL DECAY IS NOT CREATED EQUAL. Trees have evolved to shed large limbs naturally, leading to decay and discoloration, WITHOUT FAILURE. Just take a walk in the woods and you'll see decay without failure in EVERY TREE
He had an unrealistic view of how tree work gets done and by whom. Expecting a bunch of low paid, undertrained and not always sober tree cutters to strive for perfection with each cut is simply unrealistic. Even if you took 10 highly trained, conscientious, and highly skilled arbs and asked them to prune a large limb you would not get the same cut 10 x. There would be a significant discrepancy as many limbs do not present a clear target.
Another thing I just thought of based on this video is that the shape of the callous growth will be different if there is a stub to grow around. This allows the callous to grow out away from the trunk in a shape that is likely much stronger than the flatter growth over a target cut. That's just a working theory, but it makes sense.
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This video questions some unspoken assumptions in tree work. Why use an undercut? why leave a stub? If you're into tree work, check out this vid. It's 15 minutes of raw unedited cutting, no rope, no waste moves. There's a fairly long intro as a safety piece.
https://youtu.be/H3F-A1XxGYo
Let me know if this helps
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I just put out a new barber chair video. Just wanted to be clear. This is not an endorsement of the technique, just a cool video https://youtu.be/1-wT6SbJ4J0.P
Please use the fundamentals of tree falling. The barber chair worked out here, but I was ready for it. Safety first. Take care of yourself and don't try anything too heroic. Your family loves you.
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Big difference between suburban arboriculture and logging... I wrote an article called "What's wrong with the Humboldt" that I never submitted. Before you get your panties in a twist, of course, there is nothing wrong with th Humboldt, it's just rarely needed in a backyard setting. Here's a comment and a link to a recent vid on short bar techniques. and lots of good videos in the pipeline. I just shot some more vid for a new cut that has never been shown before. Just have to find some old still photos to add in and it should be finished in a couple weeks.
Comment is "Billy, August, Reg, and Jack (hotsaws 101) are all excellent fallers. You are not going to be able to fall trees as they do overnight. It takes good training and years of practice. This technique is made to help those with less falling skills be able to cut a clean notch every time. Taking a few seconds to pop out the initial wedge, opens up a great line of sight which is much easier to see exactly where the tip of the bar is.
I admire those west coast fallers and others, but I'm not trying to be like them. I don't need to cut a Humboldt much, so I never bothered getting good at it. Though it's on my bucket list! They show what can be done and that is valuable to allow us to watch and imitate.
"
https://youtu.be/oODJMoX32pI
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Latest vid showing some fun cuts and rigging. There has been a lot of unnecessary spider legs shown on YouTube lately and even more unnecessary tip tying and lifting. Gravity is 100% and can most often be used to get the job done. BUt goes down, tips go up. As long as the rigging line is offset (not in line with you), the but will swing and away, as the tips lift off the obstacle and swing away.
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8 years ago seems like half a lifetime...... this video shows the use of a vertical speed line to control the buts of some large tops... that way, when the tips caught the adjacent trees on the way down, the but didn't kick out too far from the tree and hav the tips come back.. if that makes sense!
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Think I read the following on a snapple cap some years back: some doctors make the same mistakes for 20 years and call it practice..
If the tech industry evolved at a similar pace to the tree care industry , we'd all still be using electric typewriters... I like some of Gilman's stuff.. Read most of it some years back and had some correspondence with him.. Most of his (and many other academic) writings on pruning have to do with training young trees. it's hard to find good information or science on pruning mature trees.. Guy Meillieur has been working on it and many of my ideas were developed after hearing him talk about pruning practices after ice damage...
As far as pruning goes, the entire industry in the US, led by the academic types and the big associations are years, maybe a decade behind the Europeans.. Look at the ANSI standards and best pruning practices talking about "CLEANING" and "RAISING" ... And the refusal to acknowledge over extended horizontal lower limbs as a hazard, or recognize the importance pf preserving lower limbs on the western side of the tree in open areas to protect from late afternoon summer sun on the trunk and roots..
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In tree work there is a lot to be learned when things go wrong. That doesn't even have to be when something gets damaged. It's good enough if something happens that is simply unplanned. That's a good time to stop and think, reevaluate, and understand exactly: what went wrong, what can be learned and what can be done to ensure that it doesn't happen again.
The value of video to show what can go wrong is huge. It serves as a warning to the inexperienced and a reminder to the experienced..
I did a video a few years back called lost one to the wind seen here: https://youtu.be/YStg-OhJx1o
And a more recent video on barber chair seen here: https://youtu.be/TonuP6jJxiE
Both these videos show what can go wrong.. No matter how big or small the mistakes, use every one as an opportunity to lean...
Is there something else you'd like to see?... let me know..
Thanks,
Daniel
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Daniel has the broadest collection of technical tree videos... Daniel Murphy is twice previously ISA certified arborist with 30+ year's experience. Daniel will personally evaluate your trees, listen to your concerns, and give you advice based on the latest science, and his practical knowledge of trees which comes from 3 decades of hands-on experience.
Daniel Murphy possesses the skill, knowledge and experience of a master, combined with some of the best equipment money can buy, and great attention to customer service. The result is that you get excellent tree care at a competitive price. Tree pruning, tree removal, cabling, stump removal, hazardous tree evaluation, ISA certified arborist,
Daniel Murphy, personally evaluates your trees, listens to your concerns, and gives you advice based on the latest scientific understanding of trees, and a practical knowledge of trees that only comes from watching and working with these great beings for almost 3 decades.