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220,607 Views • Mar 19, 2024 • Click to toggle off description
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Article link: felipec.wordpress.com/2024/03/03/c-skill-issue-how…
By: Felipe Contreras | twitter.com/felipec
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Views : 220,607
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RYD date created : 2024-05-18T07:49:42.469264Z
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YouTube Comments - 1,473 Comments
Top Comments of this video!! :3
Problem is, 90% of C programmers probably think they're in the top 10%.
1.8K |
There are two types of programmers. One type knows they write memory bugs. The other thinks they don't write memory bugs.
680 |
I read a joke a long time ago about how if you ask a C programmer not to run with scissors they will reply that it should be 'don't fall with scissors'; I don't fall. I think we found the guy the joke is about. I also find it funny that nothing in the entire article actually argues for the point he was trying to make.
488 |
Man, I just want to write stuff in C because its fun. I don't care if I suck.
323 |
I personally feel like Sisyphus in the Dunning-Kruger Effect "graph". The more I learn and "git gud" the more I realize how fucked everything is and that my every effort may be an exercise in futility. Climbing up the Slope of Enlightment just leads me back to the Valley of Despair.
403 |
I mean, it's obvious that the author takes this all incredibly personally. It's a fact that the inherent "rails off" world C DOES lead to more bugs, regardless of how good you personally are at C. The author obviously sees himself as a lone wolf giga chad C sniper elite, but fact of the matter is:
If 9/10 people you work with are likely to fuck up the C code, maybe don't work in C unless it's a solo project.
189 |
When 75% of 0day bugs used in the wild in 2023 alone are related to memory management issues despite decades of education, mitigations, formal methods, and tools like valgrind existing, suggesting that systems programming be done in a language like Rust is justified and pragmatic.
308 |
NASA’s interplanetary missions use C/C++ on the spacecraft, but not like how most people use it. It’s not only a skill issue, but a process issue and a rules issue. Code for spacecraft uses a smaller subset of language features that is more predictable, deterministic and testable.
145 |
So: premise of the article, C is not safe -> it's a skill issue -> proceed to show "elegant & smart C" vs "naive C" to illustrate it. It somehow feels like a completely out of topic answer.
There are two kinds of C developers: those who have shot themselves in the foot and those of who have but don't know it yet.
Even the OpenBSD folks are not immune.
208 |
Sounds like the kind of guy who would argue endlessly in voice chat, whenever the group comp required him to play something else than a sniper.
110 |
Disclaimer: i'm not a Rust fanboy.
By the same logic the article guy is using, assuming MOST people can't write safe C because of skill issue, the White House is correct about moving away from it. You can't base all the production on <10% of programmers, which will also likely be tasked to plan software architecture more than writing actual code.
42 |
A couple of things:
- The article exposes the author as not an "ace C programmer".
- The best cyclist in the world will still be faster in a car.
The weak version of the argument that the author makes is obviously true: Somewhere and for some reason, writing C will make more sense than Rust.
But the strong version is just plain wrong. C safety issues run deep, "You need a proof assistant to verify the correctness of your code, because humans are physically incapable of doing the analysis manually." kinds of deep. Not reaching 100kmph on a bicycle just cannot be called a skill issue with a straight face. If the author had used their examples to mention anything about topics like relaxed memory ordering, cpu barriers, undefined behaviors, etc, etc, then maybe there would be something to compare and consider. Without those, I can only say that I do not know of a single "ace C programmer" who has ever claimed that language-level safety features are an unwanted or unneeded luxury for them.
PS: Yes, I'm a Linux kernel contributor.
313 |
The author is definitely the mid-guy in the bell curve meme.
93 |
Was convinced of rust until the white house recommended it 😂
561 |
The author is effectively advocating to continue funding the building of tightropes instead of bridges because some people can cross the pit of corpses.
148 |
When C was still a general purpose language people adhered to all kinds of style guides and best pratices to reduce the chances of terrible mistakes but since we have a whole host of other languages nowadays that fill these roles, the rules of what makes C code good have changed drastically. Nowadays performance has a much higher priority and unconventional solutions that are somewhat harder to understand but have runtime benefits are judged much more favorably.
The reason for this should be kind of self-evident. People use C mainly in performance critical and/or space constrained scenarios where these factors are of course critical.
36 |
17:20 "No true C programmer" fallacy
168 |
Isnt the article entirely contradictory. I mean it appears to be arguing that using C is dangerous, only a minority of top skilled devs can write truly safe code, most developers are not good enough at it and whats more arnt aware of how bad they actually are, making finding the safe minority effectively impossible... and thats why the White House is wrong to recommend everyone use languages designed to be inherently safer... What?
164 |
The real C programmer knows how cache impacts performance and so uses plain arrays instead of linked lists.
28 |
@felixallistar
1 month ago
now i want the Vatican to endorse Holy C
1.2K |