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603,493 Views • Mar 25, 2022 • Click to toggle off description
Also I'm very sorry for the arrow in the thumbnail, but it's about motion inputs, it kind of needs to be there for once.
Tweeper : twitter.com/LeonMassive
Games shown (in order of appearance)
Street Fighter (1987)
Wordle
Street Fighter 2
Mortal Kombat
Fatal Fury
Mighty Morphin Power Rangers: The Fighting Edition
Jojo's Bizarre adventure: Heritage For The Future
Guilty Gear Strive
Tekken 7
Dragonball FighterZ
Street Fighter 3: 3rd strike
Ultra street fighter 4
Elden Ring
League of legends
BlazBlue Central Fiction
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2
Guilty Gear XX accent core Plus R
Under Night in birth Exe Late cl-r
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: All-star battle
Skullgirls
King of fighters 13
DarkStalkers 3
Valorant
Street Fighter 5
Skate 2
Tekken 3
Lost Arc
Titanfall 2
Trackmania
Assassins Creed Brotherhood
Counter Strike Global Offensive
Apex Legends
Rocket League
Fall Guys
Cruelty Squad
Fantasy Strike
Tony Hawks Pro Skater 2
TimeSplitters 2
Fallout 3
Halo 3
Views : 603,493
Genre: Gaming
Date of upload: Mar 25, 2022 ^^
Rating : 4.882 (863/28,491 LTDR)
RYD date created : 2024-05-15T02:51:48.76511Z
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YouTube Comments - 2,062 Comments
Top Comments of this video!! :3
The biggest mindfuck had to be Ryu's appearance in Smash 4. The fact that his moveset remained so faithful on an entirely different system, and the fact that you could do EITHER/OR Button presses vs. Motion inputs, thus making everyone happy (mostly, except the motion inputs had higher damage and thus a bias for them), should have been far more emphasized as a victory for the genre but I feel like it kinda went under the radar.
481 |
This video essay when Your Only Move Is Hustle walks in
28 |
I can speak a little to the point you made on people with impaired motor function. I have some decreased function in my arms and hands, not a ton, honestly in my day to day I completely forget about it, but sometimes when I play fighting games I see moves like 360s and Demons (and charges to a lesser degree) and I have to just accept that those moves are things i CANNOT do because my hands just arent fast enough, it is a major reason why I enjoy games like DBFZ and SCVI so much, because the barrier for entry is so low, i can do all the moves even at the beginning, it's also why I'm really excited for DNFDuel. I understand that a lot of people really enjoy motion inputs so I dont blame them for being upset when they go away, but personally I find myself really enjoying it when i can actually access my entire movelist where I would otherwise have had to write off half of it because of my disability.
Update: I've been playing Zangief in SF6, I fucking love SPDs, but I think SF6 has a super forgiving input buffer so I'm not sure if I'll be able to do them reliably in other games.
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Honestly I really like motion inputs for the sole reason that I find them to be very satisfying to do.
I like when I zig-zag and the big punch do. It gives my monkey brain seritonin that other games don't give me.
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Minor correction: Fatal Fury was actually developed before the release of SFII, so SNK's fighting game development runs alongside Capcom, rather than stemming from it. SNK borrowed special moves from SF1, Capcom borrowed Super moves from Art of Fighting.
Edit: mixed up names like an idiot
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I think the key point is "New fighting games should experiment with simple inputs." That doesn't mean established franchises like SF, KoF, or GG need new entries with simple inputs. It means that the space of simple input fighters hasn't been explored enough to really know what the possibilities are.
That's especially true because most simple input fighting games either a) are too focused on being simple from top to bottom or b) don't really commit to simple inputs. I like Fantasy Strike well enough, but that game didn't just simplify special inputs, it also simplified movement, combos, the health system, the super system, etc. Meanwhile, Granblue pretends that it has simple inputs for beginners. But just like Autocombos in DBZF, Granblue's simple inputs are a beginner trap and at some point every player needs to learn the motion inputs.
We have yet to see a wide spectrum of fighting games attempt simple inputs and those that have tried are fighting against the fact that the dedicated audience of players that have stuck with the genre have to, by definition, like motion inputs. But I think there's a lot of possible upside if more games jump into the breach and try out solutions to simple inputs' problems.
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Smash’s popularity (aside from brand recognition and more polish compared to other PF) can partially be attributed to its near universal input system.
Jabs are always fast, light attacks. Smashes are slow, chargeable heavy attacks. Up special is always a recovery move. The other Specials, while very different between each character, are easy to figure out because it’s all the same inputs. You can pick up an play most of the roster without needing to look at a move list.
It’s not really the motion inputs that people can’t wrap their heads around , it’s that they change for every character. If fighting games just used quarter circles followed by a different button for everting, I feel like people would be more willing to learn the one input.
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While motion inputs definitely contribute to a new player struggling, I honestly think every thing being on the dpad/stick is a much bigger issue. In nearly every other genre, the dpad/stick is reserved for movement and that's it. Even something as simple as block not getting its own button can be a really bad thing for a newer player. This is one of the biggest reasons smash exploded in popularity. Hell, I've had ultimate players tell me they don't want to go back to melee purely because they can't turn off tap jump. As a PM player, I get it. Tap jump is annoying and the ability to rebind your controls is huge for learning a new game.
1.6K |
As a hobbyist fg dev, something that wasn't emphasized enough is that motions allow for more moves without adding buttons. A stick has six or eight buttons while a controller only has four face buttons (many players find using both back and face buttons for basically the same thing wierd) and those run out very quickly. Even simple things like a sweep in sf is technically a motion input.
Often motions also help players remember moves. If a character has 10 moves all tied to their own buttons (even if you could have that mapped to a controller). It would be very hard to remember which button mapped to which move. A shoriyuken in sf uses any of the punch buttons, so the player has to remember the motion which is the same for similar moves in many games and to use a punch button, which can be deduced from the animation.
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A very interesting watch Post the release of Street Fighter 6 and its addition of modern controls.
29 |
Though this video focuses solely on motion inputs as a core concept, it's interesting how there wasn't a segment in this discussion delving into the many fighting games that attempt to find a solution to this "motion input conundrum"
-Guilty Gear Xrd / Blazblue's "stylish" mode
-GBVS having both 1 button shortcuts and motions
-Games like Fantasy Strike (or Power Rangers I think) that have no or little motions
-MK as a whole (though it was mentioned briefly)
Clearly FG developers are actively thinking about things like this as they produce these games, and I feel like it's a bit of a missed opportunity to not take a close inspection on what works and what didn't with each attempt made over the years
Your video was excellent regardless though
Look forward to the next one
Cheers
230 |
One thing I don't think is brought up for the mid - high level is how motion inputs allow you to read your opponent. If everything is one button for example you can stand still and have full access to your moveset. Who fucking knows what you're gonna do but with inputs you know, oh ken is down backing its less likely for him to super through fireball. Oh the grappler is whiffing buttons he can be hiding 360 motions in those attack frames to bait a whiff punish. Its mostly thought of with charge characters but motions also give away tells which is something else worth keeping.
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Dear Leon: as someone else who is also in the falling interest phase, I loved what you had to say. I think it's just so normal in FGC culture to just play an endless amount of fighting games but it's normal and healthy to get outside of those boundaries. A consequence of that is, yes, you might just go back to getting your ass beat all the time, but I'm having more fun with fighting games these days as a part of what I play, not all of it. The time investment to learn new characters and systems and combos is still kinda high for me so it's nice to play something that I'm immediately capable at instead.
358 |
I think the biggest problem with fighting games is the complete lack of mastery transference. It may sound weird, but I'd say that playing Zelda or Mario prepares you for Dark Souls, playing Skyrim or Portal prepares you for CoD or Counter-Strike. There are certain basic control concepts that carry over. Fighting games don't have this.
If you're used to games where the stick is only there to move your character, using up to jump just feels like ass. Using the controller to do special moves or block feels bizarre and pressing two attack buttons to do a dash feels like complete nonsense.
The only thing that will make you better at fighting games is playing other fighting games.
The reason Smash is so popular is because it actually plays like a normal game. You could take the controls of Smash and fit them into a decent metroidvaniaor platformer. If you do the same thing with Fighting game contorls, you get that wretched Mortal Kombat platformer.
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I think that the use of motion inputs as a method of balance is also part of the reason why fighting games tend to feel radically different (and frequently incredibly unfair) at lower levels of play. I think it'd be appropriate to say that, frequently, the risk-reward of certain attacks assume your opponent is able to access their counter moves with a certain level of reliability and agility. Given Shoryukens vs Jump-Ins, per the video, a powerful jump-in option might be a risky but rewarding option at mid-high levels of play, since if the opponent calls you out, you eat a nasty punish, but at lower levels, when the average player might need 5 additional frames in order to perform the same input, that jump-in (which was probably up/forward+one attack button) goes from 'high risk high reward' to 'oppressive'.
26 |
I'll admit, even though I basically never play fighting games anymore, this is a problem that I have thought about a lot. Introducing any kind of complex mechanic into a game erects another barrier to entry. This isn't bad by itself, but the more complex something is, the more niche your game will become. Fighting games have, for the longest time, been incredible niche. Of course, everyone can lay a beatdown on their friend, or some CPU in the campaign mode, but anything other than that is difficult to even comprehend for new players.
The worst part is that, in my eyes at least, there's not really any way out of this problem. By taking away what makes fighting games niche, you'd ruin it for everyone in that niche, sacrificing their enjoyment for greater appeal. A game with difficult motion inputs will be a "sweat game" and one without motion inputs will be a "scrub game." There's probably always going to be a divide here, no matter what you do.
133 |
Core-A have also mentioned in their video on motion inputs how they directly contribute to the way character is supposed to be played i.e. Guile's fireball is a lot stronger than any shoto's only when he is close enough to them because of its fast recovery. On the farther distances shotos win because they are not restricted by having to charge their fireballs and can spam them as fast as they can input them after the recovery. Plus, his invincible move requires that he sacrifices all his movement, while a standart DP requires a sacrifice of all defence but can be executed smoothly while advancing (run up DP gang unite).
Great video overall, can relate to not picking or fully realising a character I've enjoyed because of their inputs. Balrog has a goddamn input salad of all the different shit; Falke is legit unfeasible to play on pad; Cody having a 5 second hold, a timing challenge and the janky-ass clusterfuck that is his pocket sand input make me tear my hair out.
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I don't think the fgc will ever be happy with ditching inputs tbh. They're just too satisfying. I'm glad you discussed both positives and negatives of the mechanic though.
60 |
It's weird to think that Masahiro Sakurai kinda foresaw all of this when designing smash lol. Like I think Smash is the natural end result of making a FG that's friendly to consoles/ analog controllers on top of being intuitive to the point that a child can pick it up and immediately understand it.
Like it's all there, directional moves, a block button, analog movement. Considering that smash was concieved after Sakurai wanted to make a game like KoF that could be as easy to understand as Kirby, I imagine that these were all things he noticed that could be problems for a total novice to the genre.
That's why I think that Smash and platform fighters have carved out a niche for themselves and manage to thrive in FG discourse, while something like Fantasy Strike... just sort of exists? I never hear people talk about it unless it's in the discussion of trying to make fighting games more user-friendly. I think any steps to try and make fighting games more intuitive are sort of futile half-steps where the designers either don't know or don't want to admit that fighting games at their core are strange and archaic and over the course of 30 years have branched so far away from the skills modern games teach that just about everything about them past pressing buttons to attack is alien to new players.
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@Frozen_Sherbet
2 years ago
I'm surprised you didn't brought up SF4 on the 3DS. You could access motion inputs from the touch pad so it eliminated the difficulty of inputs. However since they didn't re-balance the game around this charge characters became insanely good.
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